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Remington 700

Permalink: Remington 700
by , Posted to on 11/29/2010 1:10 PM | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 05/06/2003
Location: MN
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39762676/ns/business-cnbc_tv/

I watched this on TV the other night, wow is all I can come up with. Remington better get something figured out I know a lot of you guys shoot this gun.  So please read this watch it whatever but be very carefull.  Maybe this is on Youtube as well

A 10-month investigation by CNBC has found that at least two dozen deaths and more than 100 injuries have been linked to the signature product of an iconic American company.

The Remington Model 700-series rifle - with more than 5 million sold - is one of the world’s most popular firearms. Famous for its accuracy, the rifle is now the target of a series of lawsuits claiming that it is unsafe and susceptible to firing without pulling the trigger.

Remington insists its rifle is safe and free of any defect, though internal documents obtained by CNBC indicate the company has wrestled with concerns over the gun’s safety for some 60 years. The documents reveal that on at least two occasions, the company considered – and then decided against – a modification of the original trigger design intended to eliminate inadvertent discharges. One of those proposed fixes would have cost Remington 5.5 cents per gun, according to the company’s own calculations.

To date, more than 75 lawsuits have been filed against Remington alleging safety problems with its 700-series rifle. The company has consistently stated that the deaths and injuries involving the gun have been the result of improper modifications, poor maintenance or unsafe handling, and it has prevailed in some court cases by arguing that inexperienced users are in denial that they pulled the trigger.

CNBC: Remington Under Fire

One of those who have suffered devastating consequences as the result of the Remington 700-series rifle is Richard Barber, of Manhattan, Mont. In 2000, Barber said, his 9-year-old son Gus was fatally shot after a day of hunting with his family when a Remington 700 rifle inadvertently discharged. Gus’ mother, Barbara Barber, had been unloading her rifle and later said she was certain her finger was not on the trigger when the gun suddenly fired. Within days of the accident, Barber began hearing about other incidents in which Remington 700s inadvertently went off.

“I went to the funeral home and looked Gus right square in the eye and I said, ‘Son, it ends here and now.'" Barber said. "I promised him I would never be bought off and I would never quit until I've effected change."

CNBC Special Report:
Remington Under Fire

The Barber family sued Remington, and as a result the company agreed in 2002 to modify certain older 700 rifles for a fee of $20. But the settlement stopped short of a full recall, and the basic design of the rifle stayed the same.

CNBC found that from the very beginning, the company looked at ways to fix its bolt-action rifle, even contemplating a nationwide recall. But on more than one occasion, Remington decided against a recall.

And it turns out that decision is Remington's, and Remington's alone.

For most products – cars, toys, food, even BB guns - the government can order a recall. In 2010, for example, the Eagle 5 Rifle crossbow made by Master Cutlery was recalled after regulators found it could fire, without pulling the trigger, when the safety is switched off.

But the Consumer Product Safety Commission cannot recall guns. Nor can the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or the Justice Department.

Guns hold a special place in American life - and American law, says Dallas attorney Jeffrey Hightower.

“Remington polices itself,” he said. “The gun industry polices itself.”

A federal law, passed in 1976 and upheld repeatedly in court, specifically bars the government from setting safety standards for guns, because of the Second Amendment.

Rich Barber says that’s as it should be. He’s a strong supporter of gun rights and is still an avid shooter. He even sometimes shoots Remingtons.

“It is our responsibility as pro-gun individuals to regulate an issue of this nature,” he said. “I am fearful that if the government got involved in this, that they would put such stringent standards on firearms, they'd be so safe, they wouldn't work.”

But now, some are trying to force Remington’s hand. The company is battling two proposed class-action suits demanding a nationwide recall.

Texas attorney Robert Chaffin, who is not involved in the latest suits, says that is easier said than done. He says fixing the Remington 700 has become far more expensive than years ago and now is estimated to cost $75 to $100 per gun.

“So you're talking about a recall campaign that could have cost up to $300 million if it was run to its fullest,” said Chaffin. “Which was actually more than the entire net worth of the company."

That cost would complicate the company’s plans to sell its stock to the public. Since 2007, Remington has been owned by the giant investment firm Cerberus, which had quietly begun buying gun companies the year before.

In October 2009, Cerberus announced plans to sell stock in a new company called Freedom Group, a collection of gun makers built around Remington. Like Remington and DuPont officials, Cerberus officials declined to be interviewed for this report. The company said it couldn’t talk to us about the Remington 700 this close to the public stock offering.

“I don't think anybody wants to go on national TV and lie,” said Barber. “I could say whatever I want. But those documents clearly speak for themselves and they speak volumes about what the company knew, when they knew it, what they did, and what they did not do, and what they continue to do today.

It has been ten years since the death of Barber’s son. He occasionally wishes life could be back the way it was. But he knows that can never be.

“I don't see the world like I used to as a glorious place,” he said.

Barber says he has lost faith - in the legal system and in corporate America.

Sometimes, he finds some solace at a shooting range.

“You look at evil all the time,” he said “And what does that do? I mean, do you go to a place to shut it off? Or do you have a place to go to shut it off? I do. It's when I'm on my rifle. That's my place. Because when I'm on my rifle, I don't feel anything.”

I Would Rather Be ______ing
Trent (Sotaman) Thomas
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 1:44 PM | Reply #1 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 08/12/2003
Location: ND
Hatchet job, not a documentary.  Factor out the improperly adjusted triggers and you get rid of the vast majority of the "accidental discharges", then factor out the folk who don't clean stuff and you get rid of most of the rest.  Lastly, re-train folk to keep their muzzle pointed in a safe direction and there is no problem.

Given the guns they showed Barber still shooting I think one can likely assume he's an avid shooter and maybe even thought he knew how to adjust a 700 trigger properly.  Same goes for the LEO's who were pounding on the side of the rifle and making it go off, someone is awful confused regarding the proper function of a very small flat-blade screwdriver as it applies to 700 Triggers.
..............THIS SPACE FOR RENT..............
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 1:54 PM | Reply #2 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 05/06/2003
Location: MN

Did you  see the video about how the LE fellows having the issues.  You could be right about the screwdrivers and cleanings.  But that lady that killed her son that is something to be concerned with and I agree a weapon should always be pointed in a safe direction.  But in some regards Remington settling these cases doesnt look good to me.  They knew long ago there was a concern and that was according to the designer.

I Would Rather Be ______ing
Trent (Sotaman) Thomas
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:06 PM | Reply #3 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 07/26/2010
Location: SD
Not saying Remington's not at fault, but anything coming from NBC or CNBC should automatically prompt a red flag. Mention of the gov deciding safety standards. What happened a couple years ago? Few companys decided to raise trigger pull as that is what the gov wanted, then it became evident this causes more accidents. Bottom line, firearms, especially hunting rifles, are designed to kill and do that job well. Probably all of us that hunt alot have witnessed a close call, and nearly every close call I've seen or heard of involved negligent firearm safety.
John Browning=GENIUS
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:08 PM | Reply #4 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 09/28/2005
Location: ND
As a 700 owner, I'm biased. What really scares the hell out of me is people who give kids lever guns to hunt with. I knew a guy who got his arm shot off at the elbow when a guy and a kid pulled into his yard asking permission to hunt. The rifle was in the window rack when it went off and shot through the cab hitting him. On many more occasions I've seen them discharge when people are fumbling with gloves and such. I will not hunt along someone's kid that has a lever gun.
Education will tell you a tomato is a fruit, while wisdom will tell you not to put it in a fruit salad.
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:12 PM | Reply #5 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 08/12/2003
Location: ND
Cheaper to settle the cases than to actually win them in court.  Plenty easy to see if a 700 trigger has been mucked with within 10 seconds of removing it from the stock, the sealer they use it either there or not. If it's been tampered with it should = "Case Dismissed" right then and there, trouble is many folk don't like the idea of personal responsibility.  Right or wrong that's that.  The lady killed her son by shooting through the horse trailer.  If they'd have just had a horse in there bullet might not have made it to kiddo.  'Course they'd still have a dead or very wounded horse, pointing to the fact that she ought not have been pointing the gun there in the 1st place.

I realize it's calouse but if mamma Barber kills kiddo in a car due to her own negligence she goes to jail.  How is pointing the gun at kiddo any different?

Martyr or criminal?
..............THIS SPACE FOR RENT..............
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:16 PM | Reply #6 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 04/16/2007
Location: SD
i will buy all the crappy dangerous 700 for 50 dollars for safteys sake.
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:33 PM | Reply #7 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 05/06/2003
Location: MN
KurtR Said:
i will buy all the crappy dangerous 700 for 50 dollars for safteys sake.


I agree with you and Clay if the gal would have been pointing in a safe direction.  I do however think there maybe some truths behind this story, there have been a lot of cases and the guy at a sniper case that says it was a Remington moment.  Has been around the gun long enough to be concerned
I Would Rather Be ______ing
Trent (Sotaman) Thomas
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:39 PM | Reply #8 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 07/26/2010
Location: SD
I like my 70's and 77's, but you know to help keep everyone safe, I'm with Kurt, 50 and I'll take your 700.
John Browning=GENIUS
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:42 PM | Reply #9 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 01/08/2002
Location: ND
I traded all my dangerous 700s in on Savages....
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:45 PM | Reply #10 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 08/12/2003
Location: ND
Sotaman Said:
I do however think there maybe some truths behind this story, there have been a lot of cases and the guy at a sniper case that says it was a Remington moment.  Has been around the gun long enough to be concerned

He was the range officer.  I'll say it again, how many of them were altered?  Easy enough to see, pull the stock.  There's nothing that can fake the factory goo they put onto the adjustment screws so anyone can tell if they've been mucked with.  If the rangemaster had pulled every stock and said that 10%-15% of them still had the factory stick-um on the trigger adjustment screws, you'd have a story, without that info they're making blind assumptions at best.

Sota, here's the thing, I could make ANY 700 trigger repeat any of the "mis-firings" they showed on MSNBC.  You want it to go off when you release the safety, no problem, you want it to go off when you bang the side, no problem, you want it to go off when camming the bolt into battery, piece of cake.  It's not an equipment malfunction, it's operator error on the part of the person running the small flat-bladed screwdriver, or in the case of the X-mark Pro, the little bitty allen driver.
..............THIS SPACE FOR RENT..............
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:49 PM | Reply #11 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 09/11/2002
Location: ND
what exactly is the proper way to clean one?  Take the stock off and spray 'er down?  scrub the trigger assembly?  So far I just clean the barrel and the action, but I don't shoot much.

I say to hell with that pot o' gold.

Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:54 PM | Reply #12 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 08/12/2003
Location: ND
Were I the defense atty for Remington in the Barber case, I'd have been pressing the local DA for charges of Negligent Homocide or Involuntary Manslaughter to be filed against mamma who pointed the gun at kiddo, and whomever adjusted the trigger as they are equally culpable.

Same scenario only different connotation:  Mamma gets behind the wheel drunk having just had new brakes installed.  New brakes are installed improperly, momma runs into something killing kiddo.  Mamma's in trouble for being sauced and mechanic is in trouble for doing a poor job.  I see no difference in these two situations except for the connotations.
..............THIS SPACE FOR RENT..............
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 2:59 PM | Reply #13 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 08/12/2003
Location: ND
ggenthusiast Said:
what exactly is the proper way to clean one?  Take the stock off and spray 'er down?  scrub the trigger assembly? 
Yep, keep going the way you are and you're unlikely to get a mis-fire but you're very likely to get a "Click, no boom" situation in very cold weather when the sear doesn't let go or the goo inside the bolt hangs up the firing pin spring.  This becomes a real problem when it's cold outside, warm inside the truck, and you're in and out of the truck a bunch say between calling sets etc.  The "sweat" on the metal mixes with oil, grease, collects dirt, creates brownish black sticky goo and you have a "No-fire", or worse, a "Hangfire" situation.

Aerosolized nitro solvent, or gun scrubber onto the trigger housing while it's out of the stock will save you any hassles. 
..............THIS SPACE FOR RENT..............
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 3:03 PM | Reply #14 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 05/06/2003
Location: MN
Clay  I dont know the 700 never fired one I just know how popular they are.  I just wanted to share the story to see what you thought knowing you shoot one, as well as letting people know that if you monkey with them or if you dont handle them carefully there can be consiquenses. 
I Would Rather Be ______ing
Trent (Sotaman) Thomas
Re: Remington 700
by on 11/29/2010 3:04 PM | Reply #15 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |

Joined: 02/13/2006
Location: ND
Horsager Said:
Were I the defense atty for Remington in the Barber case, I'd have been pressing the local DA for charges of Negligent Homocide or Involuntary Manslaughter to be filed against mamma who pointed the gun at kiddo, and whomever adjusted the trigger as they are equally culpable.

Same scenario only different connotation:  Mamma gets behind the wheel drunk having just had new brakes installed.  New brakes are installed improperly, momma runs into something killing kiddo.  Mamma's in trouble for being sauced and mechanic is in trouble for doing a poor job.  I see no difference in these two situations except for the connotations.
I guess I don't see how this compares.  Maybe if momma was drunk when the gun went off I could see this comparison flying but no. 

Posted By: Sotaman
Posted On: 11/29/2010 1:10 PM
1532 Views, 52 Comments
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